my own anecdotal experience with magnesium : i was generally prone to leg cramps even when young that usually subsides when i take salty water. i had developed hyperthroidism in late 90s that was treated eventually with radio-iodide. subsequently i went into hypothyroid state. soon after was a violent cramps episode which became regular that even if i took few hundred steps my legs would start cramping up. A steep descent into quality of life had me try many many tests as the initial suspicion was some kind of clot. Quite painful nerve conduction velocity tests were done. I was the subject of academic curiosity at stanford hospital. I was on codeine and other pain medications. After a year of this, one day happened to talk to a regular doctor (no specialization), who treats patients from asian subcontinent. He said that i may have magnesium deficiency which was apparently common for my ethnic background. Since by that time i had tried everything, this was an easy choice. Just a couple of weeks in with cal-mag citrate (400mg/day), felt something different in my legs and the whole nigthmare just lifted. I was able to return to hikes etc and would only occasionally need magnesium. It has been 2 decades since, and i dont take magnesium anymore and do strenous workouts and never again triggered any cramps episode.
I took glycinate for a while. Deep sleep with lots of dreams. But soon followed extreme pressure in head with severe headache that i completely stopped.
Increasingly hard to get Mg tablets without Vitamin B and so increasingly easy to get excess B12. Australian formulations of magnesium sold by Swisse don't have B. The same branding in HK does. I wrote to them about it, interesting response: "check the therapeutic goods administration site for canonical ingredients we don't commit to labelling the jar" they do list the neutral filler and Mg they just don't say "no B12"
B is typically included for synergistic uptake reasons I believe.
Excess B12 is really bad. Neuropathy. Considering you take Mg to get rid of muscle cramps (pain, conducted by nerves), a bit ironic. It's increasingly common in Australia now.
Excess Mg is unlikely. I think the body chucks it out in Urine pretty rapidly. I still take it, the cramps after sport return within a few months when I stop. I have a fruit and veg rich diet, I get plenty of natural Mg and K which is also good for muscle cramps. Age related insufficiency I suspect (63) malabsorption comes with age.
Do you have any source for this? I can find some "it-might-be-bad" studies through a quick googling, but in general the idea seem to be that excess B12 is thought to be unproblematic ("it's just peed out").
Can confirm, overdosing on Vitamin B6 is bad. Lots of very scary symptoms.
I accidentally poisoned myself with B6 from Magnesium tablets over the course of a year: https://davids.town/vitamin-b6-overdose (my levels were 38x the healthy range).
tl;dr: Always check your Magnesium for what else the tablet includes. If it contains Pyridoxine hydrochloride (i.e. Vitamin B6) or another Pyridoxine compound, find one that doesn't. Since then, Swisse is the only brand I've found that consistently sells "pure" Magnesium tablets here in Australia.
I take 50mg a day in a bio-available form pyridoxal-5-phosphate. Consider this form instead.
I'm taking it because there is some genetic evidence that I would benefit from doing so. No neuropathies thus far but it's only been about a month and a half.
I wasn't even aware I was ingesting B6, I was just taking the tablets for the magnesium (it was one of the few with the full 440mg dose I was recommended).
Blood tests since then have shown that my B6 levels are fine with my usual diet, I don't take multivitamins or supplements anymore.
I don't know much about B6 beyond my own experiences with it, so all I can say is make sure you've discussed it with your GP, and be aware of the coasting effect if you do happen to develop any neuropathic symptoms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavitamin-B6_syndrome
I have to admit I am troubled by reading all this including that it has a half-life.. I did have the assumption that water soluble meant that excess was eliminated out the same day as is the case with some things. I had literally never heard of this toxicity issue till last night. One problem in general is that supplements don't really come in a "smaller size" unless I guess, you get powder form instead of capsules. I will have to review the genetic data I have again.
Genetic data is useful to know really, especially for people with MTHFR mutations as many pathways get affected.
Vitamin B6 accumulates in the blood - it has an exceptionally long half-life on the order of several weeks. It's not an occasional overdose you have to worry about the most, but also chronic accumulation at low doses (even not much above RDA levels, single digit milligrams) and your blood levels - apparently there's a large individual variation in its metabolism (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.phanu.2020.100188)
UK/EU upper safety limits are at 10-12mg per day. US UL of 200mg is way past due for an overhaul.
I personally got sick from a B complex with 40mg pyridoxine after just 4 months. Developed dysautonomia (not a canonical example, but still a kind of neuropathy - damage to autonomic nervous system). Had random tachycardia and high blood pressure flares from various triggers every week, took a while to figure out what was really causing it. Your typical non-neurologist GP wouldn't know anything because "it's water soluble" and the textbooks say neuropathy develops at 200mg+. All symptoms mostly resolved after a month once I threw away everything with pyridoxine. Wouldn't touch it again, always on a lookout for B6 in my multis and supplements now. P5P form is thought to be safer, but also got people sick - look around on facebook B6 groups for more anecdata.
No problem with B12 as far as I know. It's not a neurotoxin unlike B6.
How much really is dangerously excess? How do methylcobalamin vs cyanocobalamin compare in this regard? I noticed B12 supplements usually exceed the RDA by some orders of magnitude.
> Increasingly hard to get Mg tablets without Vitamin B
Same problem with iron supplements. Not particularly easy to find iron without folic acid. Folic acid can be very harmful for people with methylation problems (an extremely widespread genetic thing) who should supplement methylfolate instead. Whoever feels stimulated and harder to sleep after taking a folic acid pill - beware.
B12 is water soluble and does not cause neuropathy. It was a error by the original poster.
As for methyl vs cyano, it depends whether you have the genetic factors that would benefit or not from methyl groups. In my case I wouldn't benefit so I don't take the methyl form and instead take the hydroxy and adeno forms.
Cyano is useless. Needs multiple steps in the liver to convert.
There’s a fair number of brands selling mg alone and fe alone. Maybe it’s hard outside the US? Or maybe places like target and CVS don’t carry them - those places do have limited options.
Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen Mg supplements with other stuff added. I'm currently using glycinate and taurate in powder form, and there's nothing else listed.
I sprained something in my lower back badly enough about a year ago that it took four trips to the chiropractor before I could get out of bed in the morning without lots of swearing. After that, it would seem to be getting better for a few days, then regress into spasms again. After a month or so of that, I remembered that Mg is supposed to be good for tendons and ligaments. I took a good dose of Mg that night, and it was significantly better the next day, and improved from there. That's the only time in my life that I've had a clear, major difference from taking a supplement.
You can walk into target, Walmart, CVS, etc and have plenty of options for iron alone (which isn't widely packed with other vitamins outside a multi) and magnesium alone.
It's still hard to get a high enough dose to dangerous level from other supplements. Bad b6 effects typically start over 500mg/day. Usual pills of just b6 are 100mg in countries that don't limit it otherwise. The reviews that I've read normally described the issues as going away within days of stopping.
I wish there was better research on this, because so far only weird isolated cases make the news.
I'm willing to assume I'm non typical, but I definitely had temporary nerve pain effects from a B-complex supplement; I can't remember if I noticed that after the first night or the second; my spouse reported nothing like that though. Looking through my cabinet, looks like 50mg B6 pryidoxine HCl (which seems high compared to another brand I looked up and a sibling comment). Not sure why I kept those, tossed it out now.
But I was really just wanting B1 and a bit more shopping found drops (annoying) and tablets with only B1 and negligble other stuff.
Vegans can actually inadvertently stumble into this: a lot of tofu scramble recipes call for 2tbsp of nutritional yeast, and the bottles sold by e.g Braggs in America are heavily fortified.
Then it’s also used in cheese sauces, etc - to the point where it’s somewhat of a meme to just add it whenever you want umami. Then many vegans already take a B multi to handle B12.
Point of all this being that this particular diet can lead to overdosing on B6 without realizing it. Once I got myself a non fortified Nutritional Yeast for baking/cooking, I noticed changes in myself for the better.
I've taken Epsom salt as directed on the drug facts label 3 times, ever, and all three times I probably avoided an urgent care/clinic visit by doing so.
If you're ever so severely clogged up that you're approaching a week without - Epsom salt will, in fact, work. It works so well that I'd recommend pre/probiotic foods for a couple days afterward. It completely cleans you out.
Otherwise, I agree. You have to know why you're clogged, too; if you got no clue, go see a Dr.
constipation is one reason, but also just a temporary, painful blockage for whatever reason. Epsom is like drano for your intestines. The dosage information is on all epsom salt packages designed to be used this way. Obviously don't ingest like, lavender scented bath salt (Sitz salt, whatever)
As always with supplements, a deficiency might cause the issue (cramps in this case) and the supplement gets you back to normal levels, preventing cramps. If you’re experiencing cramps but don’t have a magnesium deficiency, taking magnesium supplements won’t make the cramps go away.
But it works for me and I know more anecdata cases.
Maybe it depends on technical cause of what seems to be cramps. And maybe it helps indirectly by helping some other process in the body. But in ny experience there’s direct correlation between magnesium intake and cramps and nail health.
I’ve a feeling genetics may be involved since my kid also has similar tendencies. And doctor we went to for his night cramps did suggest magnesium which worked. So whether there’s research or not, doctors do suggest it and it does seem to help at least in some cases.
When I have a cramp in my calf and I take mg in powder form it goes away within a minute. I am also no longer able to trigger a cramp which I can before taking mg. I don't think a placebo would work that quick and that well.
From experience it does work in cases where through intensive training and very high 'sweating' both from cardio training and saunas you temd to lose a lot of minerals.
Last time I did a deep dive into this, found a few papers suggesting that it can be any salt imbalance (potassium, magnesium or calcium) that triggers cramps.
However, potassium and calcium are a lot more prevalent in standard diets so it's usually lack of magnesium that is the culprit.
I'd always believe a doctor over anonymous internet experiences. If your doctor thinks it's not helpful, follow their advice. I found my cramps stopped, but anecdata is not evidence.
While _on the whole_ I would side with doctors over random people on the Internet, I've had a number of cases where the doctor has been outright wrong, whether misdiagnosis, or not being up to date with current research.
The doctor didn't say it doesn't work. Just that it's not scientific.
But if your lived experience says it works, it doesn't really need to have scientific evidence.
The real question is if there is evidence that relevant doesea of magnesium supplements are harmful, and if so, how those harms compare to the cramps you're experiencing.
There's all sorts of unscientific stuff out there, some of which is harmful. But if it's not harmful, it's worth trying.
If you get frequent cramps and you don't want to try magnesium supplements, you could try going out of your way to eat more foods that are known to be high in magnesium, most of which are generally considered healthy and there you go; choosing to eat a bit more leafy greens doesn't feel risky unless you've got an alergy. Having a banana to get potasium should be fine for most too, unless the fruit sugar is a problem or if there's an allergy.
I mean you should take magnesium if you are deficient on a blood test.
If you take too much magnesium you will just get diarrhea.
The non-blood test way would be to take magnesium until you get diarrhea and then take less but that is obviously not a pleasant experience.
I take magnesium because it is really obvious when I track micro nutrients that I don't get enough in my diet. It mostly depends though on how much spinach I am eating.
Of clinical importance, around 0.3% of total body magnesium is found in serum. Thus, total and/or ionized magnesium concentrations measured in plasma or serum are not reliable markers of total magnesium levels in the body; as serum magnesium does not reflect the total magnesium content at the tissue or organs, and is also a poor indicator of intracellular magnesium content.
Emerging evidence suggests that the serum magnesium/calcium quotient (0.4 is optimal, 0.36–0.28 too low) is a more practical and sensitive indicator of magnesium status and/or turnover, than the serum magnesium level alone [19]. In chronic latent magnesium deficiency, magnesium levels in the blood are within a normal range, despite there being severely depleted magnesium content in the tissues and bones. Therefore, using magnesium levels in the blood to determine total magnesium levels in the body can result in underestimation of magnesium deficiency in healthy and diseased populations. Recent studies have shown that individuals with serum magnesium levels around 1.82 mg/dL (0.75 mmol/L) are most likely to have a magnesium deficiency, while those with serum magnesium level more than 2.07 mg/dL (0.85 mmol/L) are most likely to have adequate levels
Some more anecdata: magnesium greatly reduces annoying muscle twitches for me. I get them quite frequently when I don't take magnesium for a while. Magnesium citrate is easily available here, without added vitamin b6. No side effects from what I've observed over the years.
Also muscle cramps. I like to stretch out all my muscles when I first wake up while still in bed and when I don't supplement magnesium this has sometimes triggered cramps in leg muscles. When supplementing magnesium this never happen, and the stretched muscles feel better, more relaxed.
I find this to be true as well. I have nerve damage/pressure from bad back. If I miss a dose before bed, I almost invariably get a calf cramp in the early morning hours before waking. Very annoying, only way to get rid of it is get out of bed and stand up on it. I think flooding the body with the magnesium before bed, before it has a chance to maybe get rid of excess perhaps, because taking it too far from bedtime I'll still have twitches and cramps.
Always love to see a Gwern article on the front page. I threw some cash his way for changing my life over a decade ago with his page on spaced repetition, and more recently for his page on using pure nicotine to form other habits.
Magnesium — cheap & plain-as-possible magnesium pills — are a great laxative. I suspect that this has follow-on psychological effects. All the expensive pills are just to avoid the laxative effect. No further benefit. So if you think a good dump contributes to your wellbeing, consider the plain stuff.
There is no such thing as “plain”. You can’t eat pure magnesium. mg oxide is cheap, but apparently mostly laxative. Mg citrate is part laxative but also absorbed. Mg glycinate is more expensive but avoids the laxative effect.
For the muscle relaxant effect (other than perhaps bowel muscles), mg oxide is hardly useful.
> For the muscle relaxant effect (other than perhaps bowel muscles), mg oxide is hardly useful.
This is what I’m questioning. Most of these variants are claiming subtler psychological effects — when the basic stuff has a very direct effect that I think is positive.
I always just buy the magnesium pills that just say “magnesium.”
Well please read things more carefully in the future.
No one sells pills of pure magnesium - that would be eating metal shavings or metal beads.
It is ALWAYS a magnesium ion paired with an anion of some sort. Is that what you mean? Ones with only magnesium salt or oxide - I.e citrate, carbonate etc
As others have illustrated no one sells "magnesium" pills. It is a pill of magnesium reacted with something else. The source of this varies as to whether or not the product wants to be considered as vegetarian, kosher, or otherwise.
> All the expensive pills are just to avoid the laxative effect. No further benefit.
Different substances may have seriously different subjective (e.g. on mood, sleep) effect in at least some people (e.g. me). I may be a good idea to try bisglycinate, orotate, threanate to check whether some of them act the way you like.
Theonate gives scary NDE style dreams/out of body experiences. It is supposedly a nanoparticle formulation that crosses the blood brain barrier. Makes me wonder about safety.
Not to me, gives me a full night of deep uninterrupted sleep instead.
> out of body experiences
I would pay thousands of dollars for a pill which would give me an out of body experience. To me it seems among the most important things to have experienced before you die.
Have you taken any malaria prophylaxis pills? I had the weirdest dreams on those (maybe not an oit of body experience though), and so did most of the people on the work trip I needed them for. Malarone seemed most likely to trigger vivid dreams, some people had received a newer? medicine which seemed less impactful.
Some malaria drugs have pretty serious warnings aboit psychiatric effects that may continue even after stopping use, so be careful.
There are many substances (including legal and easily available) which can cause vivid and weird dreams. For example you can try apple juice and St. John's wort.
My understanding is that the human body stores magnesium, said stores sufficient for approximately 30 days.
As such, daily magnesium is far less important that the 30 day moving average.
In theory, there is enough magnesium in your bones (~12 g) to cover your RDA (~400 mg) for 30 days [1]. However, only a third of that is available without strongly negatively affecting your health. So if your Mg stores are full (if!), then you have about 10 days worth "stored". However, your day-to-day Mg homeostasis is done by your kidneys, i.e. on a much, much shorter time scale. So your daily intake does matter, but sporadic deficiencies can be compensated for about 10 days.
Another thing why magnesium oxide could not be the optimal compound for you: It's a laxative. That might be good to know before you start daily supplementation. Personally, I have bisglycinate.
An aspect missing from the article and comments here is that magnesium is also available as a topical application. I have some in a spray that I can apply to my knees before bed, we also get some from a local source in a cream base for massaging into muscles. That lets you focus the application without dosing your entire system with it.
It is worth noting that these topical applications are quite controversial in the medical literature. The evidence supporting a dermal absorption of magnesium (or other electrolytes) is pretty poor [1].
Just some input on Magnesium Chloride for me. I have found it is the best for me as Chloride has no “effects” of its own, unlike things like Glycinate. Glycinate is good if it works for you, but I get wired and can’t sleep. I take citrate-based supplements for Calcium and Potassium, but mag citrate causes a lot of GI distress for me. None with chloride.
The bad thing? Mag Chloride is highly hydroscopic. You really can’t make it into a pill or they get all weird and goopy. So to get Mag Chloride you have to get it in a liquid form and it is moderately expensive. Worse than the expense, it tastes positively horrid. Still, it has the best impact on my sleep than other forms, so take that for what it is worth.
You can apply it topically - look for magnesium oil sprays, these are usually just concentrated magnesium chloride. Works well too, gets absorbed systemically totally bypassing digestion, only side effect is oily skin.
Reportedly, excess amounts over what the body can handle wouldn't get topically absorbed (unlike orally) and leave a white residue and that's how you'd know you've had enough - but I never had that happen to me personally.
It is worth noting that these topical applications are quite controversial in the medical literature. The evidence supporting a dermal absorption of magnesium (or other electrolytes) is pretty poor [1]. In that sense: yes, it would be exceedingly difficult to overdose using them.
I struggled with sleep for years and years. If I exercised the insomnia would be the worst. Lately I've figured out that magnesium and B6 (p5p form) are the missing piece I have needed. I've been taking magnesium for a long time, but B6 finally allowed me to actually experience improved sleep after exercise.
Be very careful about that B6 dosage. It's possible to overdose on b6 at surprisingly low doses. It doesn't usually cause permanent damage, but anecdotal reports suggest it can take months to a year to recover from b6 neuropathy.
What is "too high a dose"? I imagine the magnesium self regulates because you'll be on the toilet more often than not.
People on HN crack me up. We're smart enough to know that supplements can be beneficial, and how, but not so smart we don't need a nanny to tell us to be careful?
Anecdotally, I've heard of people developing neuropathy at doses of 25mg/day, so I try to keep my intake below that.
Less anecdotally, regulatory agencies around the world have repeatedly lowered what they consider safe amounts of B6.
B6 is particularly an issue because there seems to be a general assumption that b vitamins are safe, and that water-soluble vitamins cannot be harmful. Couple that with the tendency of multivitamins and energy drinks to add b-vitamins, and it's very easy to end up overdosing on B6, which it turns out can be harmful despite being a water-soluble b-vitamin.
Ah, now i get it, it's like tylenol is in most OTC medicines because it's considered so safe. I'll steer clear of supplementing B6. I don't really get much effect from B vitamins anyhow, so i guess i get enough in my diet and occasional multivitamin.
Thanks for the heads' up, this is completely different than the 250mg mentioned elsewhere (iirc) - i'll let people know.
aside: L-theanine made me jittery, boy. Not a fan.
For me: I need 0.3 mg melatonin almost every day to control my sleep and do a bunch of other things. The onset is between 1 to 3 hours. In practice it means I need to be okay with an early wake-up if it kicks in within 1 hour.
When I feel jittery/trembly I need magnesium as my jitters stop when I take it.
Fun fact - Low magnesium can contribute to type II diabetes. It’s been found certain people not responding to improved diet and medication have the A1C drop after starting mg. Of course, if low Mg isn’t a factor then supplementation will do squat.
This is great and all but how can you objectively measure something like "mood" or "productivity"?
There are a lot of variables, even in your day to day work activities (e.g. you never debug & implement a fix for the exact same bug twice...one bug might be a satisfying and enjoyable activity, another might be a frustrating, difficult, and tedious pain in the ass)
I've done similar trials with magnesium glcyinate and personally not noticed any difference. But then I have not found any way to accurately measure differences between what a "good day" is Vs a "bad day". Even without supplementing, it feels like dice roll at the best of times
I haven’t seen any cognitive / mood difference for me when taking magnesium supplements in any form.
But then I went to one of those sensory deprivation chambers, where they use magnesium salts to change the water’s buoyancy.
I felt the most content and happy in my life for a week after. It was really bizarre - I would “just not care” about pressures at work, failing personal relationships, any stress really.
And I remained effective, just with a higher EQ because I wouldn’t overthink things.
Tried it some more times with similar effect. So now when I end up in a situation where I build up stress and can’t seem to get to a chill state - just go for a deprivation tank and align myself back, though I try not to get into a situation where I need one altogether.
> There are a lot of variables, even in your day to day work activities
I consistently find the only thing I can correlate reliably is sleep quality assessment upon waking up. If I feel great and rested I know my performance during the day will be better at pretty much everything.
Chess puzzles work quite accurately IME to assess my mental capabilities for the day. Especially the puzzle storm on lichess. There are enough puzzles there to not repeat themselves too often and they are rated so they have similar difficulty for the same rating. In my good days (lots of sleep in previous nights) I have way better scores than on my bad days (30-40% better)
I don't know but we can measure stress reliably by HRV. It correlates extremely well with fatigue in general. For me personally, I think it correlates with mood and productivity directly, or at least the preconditions for them.
Those charts aren't very clear; given that GGPlot is already on the scene it'd probably pay dividends to bin the data in some form. I'd be starting with geom_boxplot grouped by week myself. Trying to interpret that sort of wild squiggling in the 2nd plot is not the path to happiness.
I have similar experiences to gwern with mag, surprisingly easy to overdose leading to a less than optimal state. After 25 years of messing with supplements I've settled on just thiamine and b12 with any regularity, and only inject-able at that.
Is anyone aware of an app that can facilitate these types of experiments ?
Ideal features:
Notification to self report things such as mood, quality of sleep.
Tracking of custom activities/actions (whether you worked out, drunk, or whatever)
Data export in csv :)
Bevel health might fit that bill https://www.bevel.health/
It's an app that tracks your health parameters, automatically giving you insights along the way
iOS only and requires an Apple Watch, but the deep of tracking coupled with the ease of use is amazing. It gives you a strain, recovery and sleep score that is very accurate. It syncs with your Apple Watch so you can see in depth markers such as HRV and total sleep time, with some metrics that the standard health app doesn't show. It automatically tracks a bunch of health markers. For example, It keeps track of how much zone 2 cardio I did, the amount of steps I did, the amount of daylight I had in a day, the noise of my bedroom, and a bunch of other measurements. You can also add custom measurements. I added one for taking my sleep supplements as a custom one, and I can see on the days I took it my objective sleep parameters are improved. It gives you a percentage score for each activity or action and its impact on your sleep or recovery. For example, I see if I have a late meal, it negatively impacts my sleep by 17%.
It's not the most scientific app out there, but the simplicity of its design coupled with its sleek interface has made me incorporate some good habits.
Oh god I just noticed how much this sounds like an ad, but it's one of my favorite purchases this year!
Reflect for iOS (black and blue circle icon). I found today on a search through Reddit r/QuantifiedSelf. The UI isn’t that polished, but it’s super customizable and has JSON export. Also has built-in analytics, like experiments.
Previously I was using Daylio, but that only allows you to make one entry per day.
Magnesium glycinate works for something like 30% of migrane sufferers too. Specifically that one. I wish everyone would specify what formulation with supplements.
I.e. vit D, is it cholecalciferol or calcidiol? It matters. Also D2 in mushrooms exposed to the sun, even dried, works, eventually. But rare in supplements!
I've posted many times about how my relationship with opioids (prescribed Rx, not street drugs) is improved when I'm good about taking my magnesium, which I started decades ago because it was supposed to help with atkins/keto. Many people have chimed in that what is likely happening is that Mg helps your ATP, and I'm probably just metabolizing it better. I've also seen other posts about Mg being an NMDA antagonist. If you're interested, those may be additional things you'd want to look into.
There is certainly a lack of intellectual humility.
I would consider this kind of "biohacking" to be the fallacy of complexity-seeking.
If one is looking to be healthy, the effort is much better spent on getting good sleep, healthy well balanced diet, regular exercise, maintain social relationships, manage stress. No one wants to hear this because simplicity is boring, and useless for social-status signaling.
Vitamins and all the other biohacking stuff is nonsense that gets in the way of that, with minimal benefit, and opening oneself to harms (in a rumsfeldian known known, known unknown, and unknown unknown sense).
Magnesium Glycinate makes me sleep like a baby at night.
B is typically included for synergistic uptake reasons I believe.
Excess B12 is really bad. Neuropathy. Considering you take Mg to get rid of muscle cramps (pain, conducted by nerves), a bit ironic. It's increasingly common in Australia now.
Excess Mg is unlikely. I think the body chucks it out in Urine pretty rapidly. I still take it, the cramps after sport return within a few months when I stop. I have a fruit and veg rich diet, I get plenty of natural Mg and K which is also good for muscle cramps. Age related insufficiency I suspect (63) malabsorption comes with age.
B12 has to jump through a number of hoops before it‘s even converted into a usable form [1].
I‘m sure you‘re meaning well, but B12 deficiency is a wide spread problem [2], and it’s questionable that excess is worse than deficiency.
1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19832808/#&gid=article-figur...
2: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7792587/
EDIT: After posting, I saw your other comments. Maybe you can update parent.
A low B6 diet and focus on conversion to P5P and oxidation of the excess (Aldehyde Oxidase, and maybe by proxy the ALDHs) is a safer bet.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9704859/
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ene.14786
Do you have any source for this? I can find some "it-might-be-bad" studies through a quick googling, but in general the idea seem to be that excess B12 is thought to be unproblematic ("it's just peed out").
I accidentally poisoned myself with B6 from Magnesium tablets over the course of a year: https://davids.town/vitamin-b6-overdose (my levels were 38x the healthy range).
tl;dr: Always check your Magnesium for what else the tablet includes. If it contains Pyridoxine hydrochloride (i.e. Vitamin B6) or another Pyridoxine compound, find one that doesn't. Since then, Swisse is the only brand I've found that consistently sells "pure" Magnesium tablets here in Australia.
I take 50mg a day in a bio-available form pyridoxal-5-phosphate. Consider this form instead.
I'm taking it because there is some genetic evidence that I would benefit from doing so. No neuropathies thus far but it's only been about a month and a half.
Blood tests since then have shown that my B6 levels are fine with my usual diet, I don't take multivitamins or supplements anymore.
I don't know much about B6 beyond my own experiences with it, so all I can say is make sure you've discussed it with your GP, and be aware of the coasting effect if you do happen to develop any neuropathic symptoms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavitamin-B6_syndrome
Genetic data is useful to know really, especially for people with MTHFR mutations as many pathways get affected.
UK/EU upper safety limits are at 10-12mg per day. US UL of 200mg is way past due for an overhaul.
I personally got sick from a B complex with 40mg pyridoxine after just 4 months. Developed dysautonomia (not a canonical example, but still a kind of neuropathy - damage to autonomic nervous system). Had random tachycardia and high blood pressure flares from various triggers every week, took a while to figure out what was really causing it. Your typical non-neurologist GP wouldn't know anything because "it's water soluble" and the textbooks say neuropathy develops at 200mg+. All symptoms mostly resolved after a month once I threw away everything with pyridoxine. Wouldn't touch it again, always on a lookout for B6 in my multis and supplements now. P5P form is thought to be safer, but also got people sick - look around on facebook B6 groups for more anecdata.
No problem with B12 as far as I know. It's not a neurotoxin unlike B6.
How much really is dangerously excess? How do methylcobalamin vs cyanocobalamin compare in this regard? I noticed B12 supplements usually exceed the RDA by some orders of magnitude.
> Increasingly hard to get Mg tablets without Vitamin B
Same problem with iron supplements. Not particularly easy to find iron without folic acid. Folic acid can be very harmful for people with methylation problems (an extremely widespread genetic thing) who should supplement methylfolate instead. Whoever feels stimulated and harder to sleep after taking a folic acid pill - beware.
As for methyl vs cyano, it depends whether you have the genetic factors that would benefit or not from methyl groups. In my case I wouldn't benefit so I don't take the methyl form and instead take the hydroxy and adeno forms.
Cyano is useless. Needs multiple steps in the liver to convert.
I sprained something in my lower back badly enough about a year ago that it took four trips to the chiropractor before I could get out of bed in the morning without lots of swearing. After that, it would seem to be getting better for a few days, then regress into spasms again. After a month or so of that, I remembered that Mg is supposed to be good for tendons and ligaments. I took a good dose of Mg that night, and it was significantly better the next day, and improved from there. That's the only time in my life that I've had a clear, major difference from taking a supplement.
https://www.cvs.com/shop/cvs-health-magnesium-glycinate-200m...
I got my Bs mixed up it's Mg + B6
I wish there was better research on this, because so far only weird isolated cases make the news.
But I was really just wanting B1 and a bit more shopping found drops (annoying) and tablets with only B1 and negligble other stuff.
Then it’s also used in cheese sauces, etc - to the point where it’s somewhat of a meme to just add it whenever you want umami. Then many vegans already take a B multi to handle B12.
Point of all this being that this particular diet can lead to overdosing on B6 without realizing it. Once I got myself a non fortified Nutritional Yeast for baking/cooking, I noticed changes in myself for the better.
Obligatory “I am not a doctor and YMMV”
https://purebulk.com/search?type=product&q=magnesium
Or grab these next time in Europe. 0.50 Euros effervescent tablets https://www.rossmann.de/de/gesundheit-altapharma-brausetable...
I never heard about the B12 problem. But effervescent tablets without artificial sweetener are unheard off.
If you're ever so severely clogged up that you're approaching a week without - Epsom salt will, in fact, work. It works so well that I'd recommend pre/probiotic foods for a couple days afterward. It completely cleans you out.
Otherwise, I agree. You have to know why you're clogged, too; if you got no clue, go see a Dr.
It can also be added to your bathwater or used as a foot soak.
Maybe it depends on technical cause of what seems to be cramps. And maybe it helps indirectly by helping some other process in the body. But in ny experience there’s direct correlation between magnesium intake and cramps and nail health.
I’ve a feeling genetics may be involved since my kid also has similar tendencies. And doctor we went to for his night cramps did suggest magnesium which worked. So whether there’s research or not, doctors do suggest it and it does seem to help at least in some cases.
Source: I can reproduce this on demand.
Running for a year now, it doesn't seem to make a difference.
If you're experiencing muscle cramps due to low magnesium then adding a supplement will almost certainly fix the problem.
If you're experiencing muscle cramps for another reason, it won't work, probably.
But supplements are cheap and low risk, so it's a good thing to try first.
A more accurate statement would be "there is no scientific proof that Mg works against cramps [absent a Mg deficiency]."
However, potassium and calcium are a lot more prevalent in standard diets so it's usually lack of magnesium that is the culprit.
But if your lived experience says it works, it doesn't really need to have scientific evidence.
The real question is if there is evidence that relevant doesea of magnesium supplements are harmful, and if so, how those harms compare to the cramps you're experiencing.
There's all sorts of unscientific stuff out there, some of which is harmful. But if it's not harmful, it's worth trying.
If you get frequent cramps and you don't want to try magnesium supplements, you could try going out of your way to eat more foods that are known to be high in magnesium, most of which are generally considered healthy and there you go; choosing to eat a bit more leafy greens doesn't feel risky unless you've got an alergy. Having a banana to get potasium should be fine for most too, unless the fruit sugar is a problem or if there's an allergy.
The non-blood test way would be to take magnesium until you get diarrhea and then take less but that is obviously not a pleasant experience.
I take magnesium because it is really obvious when I track micro nutrients that I don't get enough in my diet. It mostly depends though on how much spinach I am eating.
from https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6316205/
Really? I found plenty at popular online stores. Or are you saying that the vitamin B is undisclosed on the labels???
For the muscle relaxant effect (other than perhaps bowel muscles), mg oxide is hardly useful.
This is what I’m questioning. Most of these variants are claiming subtler psychological effects — when the basic stuff has a very direct effect that I think is positive.
I always just buy the magnesium pills that just say “magnesium.”
No one sells pills of pure magnesium - that would be eating metal shavings or metal beads.
It is ALWAYS a magnesium ion paired with an anion of some sort. Is that what you mean? Ones with only magnesium salt or oxide - I.e citrate, carbonate etc
Why not consider that it might alter the gut flora?
Different substances may have seriously different subjective (e.g. on mood, sleep) effect in at least some people (e.g. me). I may be a good idea to try bisglycinate, orotate, threanate to check whether some of them act the way you like.
Not to me, gives me a full night of deep uninterrupted sleep instead.
> out of body experiences
I would pay thousands of dollars for a pill which would give me an out of body experience. To me it seems among the most important things to have experienced before you die.
Some malaria drugs have pretty serious warnings aboit psychiatric effects that may continue even after stopping use, so be careful.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5684859/
They've gone away unfortunately.
[1] Alawi et al. (2018) Magnesium and Human Health: Perspectives and Research Directions; https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5926493/
This has changed: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9786204/
Notably, though, their results indicate effects on cognition and memory, which the OP's experiments don't seem to address.
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5579607/
The bad thing? Mag Chloride is highly hydroscopic. You really can’t make it into a pill or they get all weird and goopy. So to get Mag Chloride you have to get it in a liquid form and it is moderately expensive. Worse than the expense, it tastes positively horrid. Still, it has the best impact on my sleep than other forms, so take that for what it is worth.
Reportedly, excess amounts over what the body can handle wouldn't get topically absorbed (unlike orally) and leave a white residue and that's how you'd know you've had enough - but I never had that happen to me personally.
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5579607/
People on HN crack me up. We're smart enough to know that supplements can be beneficial, and how, but not so smart we don't need a nanny to tell us to be careful?
Less anecdotally, regulatory agencies around the world have repeatedly lowered what they consider safe amounts of B6.
B6 is particularly an issue because there seems to be a general assumption that b vitamins are safe, and that water-soluble vitamins cannot be harmful. Couple that with the tendency of multivitamins and energy drinks to add b-vitamins, and it's very easy to end up overdosing on B6, which it turns out can be harmful despite being a water-soluble b-vitamin.
Thanks for the heads' up, this is completely different than the 250mg mentioned elsewhere (iirc) - i'll let people know.
aside: L-theanine made me jittery, boy. Not a fan.
For me: I need 0.3 mg melatonin almost every day to control my sleep and do a bunch of other things. The onset is between 1 to 3 hours. In practice it means I need to be okay with an early wake-up if it kicks in within 1 hour.
When I feel jittery/trembly I need magnesium as my jitters stop when I take it.
Curious about this! Currently trying to figure out a good 0.3mg melatonin dosing regimine for myself.
My cramps weren't night cramps, but sport/exercise cramps.
There are a lot of variables, even in your day to day work activities (e.g. you never debug & implement a fix for the exact same bug twice...one bug might be a satisfying and enjoyable activity, another might be a frustrating, difficult, and tedious pain in the ass)
I've done similar trials with magnesium glcyinate and personally not noticed any difference. But then I have not found any way to accurately measure differences between what a "good day" is Vs a "bad day". Even without supplementing, it feels like dice roll at the best of times
But then I went to one of those sensory deprivation chambers, where they use magnesium salts to change the water’s buoyancy.
I felt the most content and happy in my life for a week after. It was really bizarre - I would “just not care” about pressures at work, failing personal relationships, any stress really.
And I remained effective, just with a higher EQ because I wouldn’t overthink things.
Tried it some more times with similar effect. So now when I end up in a situation where I build up stress and can’t seem to get to a chill state - just go for a deprivation tank and align myself back, though I try not to get into a situation where I need one altogether.
I consistently find the only thing I can correlate reliably is sleep quality assessment upon waking up. If I feel great and rested I know my performance during the day will be better at pretty much everything.
But he do excel at making a site a pain in the ass to navigate and bulking up the volume of text without adding anything useful to it.
It reeks of some effective altruist flavored breed of pomposity.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11311906/
These are the products that work for me: Magnesium Lysinate Glycinate from Doctor's Best, and Magnesium Taurate from Double Wood.
Ideal features:
iOS only and requires an Apple Watch, but the deep of tracking coupled with the ease of use is amazing. It gives you a strain, recovery and sleep score that is very accurate. It syncs with your Apple Watch so you can see in depth markers such as HRV and total sleep time, with some metrics that the standard health app doesn't show. It automatically tracks a bunch of health markers. For example, It keeps track of how much zone 2 cardio I did, the amount of steps I did, the amount of daylight I had in a day, the noise of my bedroom, and a bunch of other measurements. You can also add custom measurements. I added one for taking my sleep supplements as a custom one, and I can see on the days I took it my objective sleep parameters are improved. It gives you a percentage score for each activity or action and its impact on your sleep or recovery. For example, I see if I have a late meal, it negatively impacts my sleep by 17%.
It's not the most scientific app out there, but the simplicity of its design coupled with its sleek interface has made me incorporate some good habits.
Oh god I just noticed how much this sounds like an ad, but it's one of my favorite purchases this year!
Previously I was using Daylio, but that only allows you to make one entry per day.
I.e. vit D, is it cholecalciferol or calcidiol? It matters. Also D2 in mushrooms exposed to the sun, even dried, works, eventually. But rare in supplements!
If one is looking to be healthy, the effort is much better spent on getting good sleep, healthy well balanced diet, regular exercise, maintain social relationships, manage stress. No one wants to hear this because simplicity is boring, and useless for social-status signaling.
Vitamins and all the other biohacking stuff is nonsense that gets in the way of that, with minimal benefit, and opening oneself to harms (in a rumsfeldian known known, known unknown, and unknown unknown sense).