This is not radical. His thought is clearly in line with a very old and very mainstream philosophical tradition called "idealism," and I was surprised to see this go unmentioned in the article. See: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/idealism/
> Within modern philosophy there are sometimes taken to be two fundamental conceptions of idealism:
> 1. Something mental (the mind, spirit, reason, will) is the ultimate foundation of all reality, or even exhaustive of reality, and
> 2. although the existence of something independent of the mind is conceded, everything that we can know about this mind-independent “reality” is held to be so permeated by the creative, formative, or constructive activities of the mind (of some kind or other) that all claims to knowledge must be considered, in some sense, to be a form of self-knowledge.
Among mainstream philosophical traditions, idealism is IMO the weakest, as it's inevitably solipsistic. Physicalism has become strongest.
I think the idea of an "external reality that follows certain rules and humans operate in" could itself be a kind of evolutionarily-advantageous belief, even if it's not actually true in a quantum physics sense. In other words, we become capable of science and technology only after assuming there are scientific rules to be found.
There are many concepts like this throughout human history - another one I'm thinking of is the (in the West) monotheistic idea of narrative history/time. By framing time as something that can have a beginning and end, you enable or at least incentivize "progress", and mentally unlock the ability to work toward some idealized future, rather than accepting that time is cyclical and/or without some notion of moving forward.
> There is no objective reality, according to Rovelli — only perspectives. “This is very radical, because you can no longer say, ‘This is a list of things in the world, and this is how they are.’"
Perfectly in line with his political views, when he's a guest on the Italian TV's, or on social media he spend so much time defending the reasons of the Russian in the Ukrainian invasion. With hosts that often asks physics and political questions in the same set, as if his way of looking at reality gives him any ground truth. I'm wondering how much his physics and political views overlap. Such a delusion for me as Italian, I stopped reading his books for this reason and because at some point, after the wonder effect of reading about quantum worlds, I was left with the sensation that I read a lot and nothing at the same
time
As former physics student, a lot of ego and little physics IMHO.
Theoretical physics is pointless without experimental tests. Personally, I prefer physicists spending more time in the lab or in classroom than on mass media
People interested in this subject might enjoy this interview with David Albert [1], as well as this interview with Tim Maudlin [2], who offers a different perspective from Albert. They are both philosophers of physics, or in other words physicists working on the foundations of physics.
Seriously, it would interest me when they enable the creation of something akin to a warp drive.
- First, because it would be a way to test these hypotheses
- Second, because it would dramatically expand humanity's playground, even if it's only in the solar system in the first step.
- Third, because building a Warp drive would be good for the economy. Currently, we have no equivalent to the space race. We have AI, but there are doubts that it will enable more than incremental steps.
I like the article. And I applaud any physicist trying to come to grips with our conceptions of reality AND reading up on philosophy. That being said, he's neither the first nor will he be the last, nor is "perpectivism" in epistomology a new thing. I like, however, how he is throwing in several streams (I saw James, Nietzsche, Kuhn, and even Rorty and Wittgenstein II) of thought, centered on Kant's ideas of the noumenon and its inaccessibility. I don't think I agree with him, though ;)
If I had to label him, I'd say he is mostly an anti-realist.
How do these quantum + gravity loops/patches evolve continuously w/o time? The more I learn about theoretical physics & physicists the more I'm convinced these people are basically idiot savants.
Not sure about this specific theory, but I imagine it's similar to Wolfram's Digital Physics project, where you have "ticks" that apply the rules to eems, and then out of the maze of rule applications we somehow get time as we perceive it.
I am willing to grant that time is indeed an illusion b/c we do not have perfect perception of reality but it seems like all these new developments are squirreling time away into another part of the theory by calling it something else like "dynamics", "rule application", "evolution", etc. The physically relevant relations happen one way or another & whatever they're calling the deltas between the new primitive states & their evolution is still referring to some coordinate (whether implicit or not) that is essentially the same thing as time.
Moreover, it's pretty obvious that when they're describing the theory they can not avoid evoking temporal language & metaphors so it's difficult to take them seriously when even they can't avoid describing what's going on w/o referring to time.
My naive way to think about a reality without time is that all the possibile states of reality are already there, all together. The rules are about how to move from one state to another one, like water flowing on the side of a mountain.
Those rules might be be deterministic or there may be a roll of a dice. Then what we perceive as time is the sequence of states, the memory of previous states. No ticks are needed: there might be no central clock like in CPUs, each part of reality might apply those rules continously and move the global state from one state to another one.
But this is not physics as we are doing it now, it's presocratic philosophy. They got the idea of atoms right among a number of ones that turned on wrong.
There's no motion in what you've described. You're describing a crystal or maybe a hologram. David Bohm is the main physicist I know about who has written on this topic but I'm sure there are a few others by now as well who are taking holographic principles seriously.
I'm not a physicist either but this stuff isn't magic. Most of the mathematics used by physicists isn't complicated if you've managed to get past calculus.
If you read a lot of analytical philosophy & meta-mathematics literature you'll notice it's not unique at all. That's how I learned the short-hand conventions.
at a macroscopic level obviously what they describe must look like "time" to match what we see
but time ticking because of some dynamic interaction mechanism between some things (like a mechanical clock) is very different than some fundamental/abstract/irreducible "time" which just is (like in einstein)
> My intuition is that the overall flow of time really could be like the rotation of the sky every day. It’s a majestic, immense phenomenon, but it’s actually an illusion. This is a totally perspectival understanding of the second law of thermodynamics. It’s real in the same sense that the rotating sky is real, but it’s real only with respect to us.
And later:
> Our community has wasted a lot of time searching after speculative ideas. What we need instead is to digest the knowledge we already have. And to do that, we need philosophy. Philosophers help us not to find the right answers to given questions, but to find the right questions to better conceptualize reality.
I think it’s odd that a physicists proposes a new theory without suggesting experiments that could falsify the theory.
That second quote hits hard. Physics got so good at answering questions that people forgot to check if they were asking the right ones. Same thing happens in tech - we're really good at optimizing for metrics, terrible at asking if those metrics matter.
The core idea of relational quantum mechanics is that when we talk about an object — be it an atom, a person or a galaxy — we are never just referring to the system alone. Rather, we are always referring to the interactions between this system and something else. We can only describe — and in fact understand — a thing as it relates to ourselves, or to our measuring devices.
Lee Smolin has gone down a different track but with similar spirit of sorts. Carlo poked fun at Lee for all the work they've done together despite disagreeing on so much in his recent talk[1] at Lee's Fest[2].
Smolin has named his approach the Causal Theory of Views, in which he postulates that spacetime emerges from events, ie relational interactions. This[3] interview, which is a few years old now, contains a decent high-level explanation. The idea that kinda overlaps with Rovelli he explains like this:
The theory that I've been looking for would take advantage of the fact that the notion of locality and nonlocality is key to understanding quantum mechanics, and then try to understand that with the lens of the unification of quantum physics with space and time, which is quantum gravity.
In both approaches, there's a principle, which is the idea of relational physics—that the degrees of freedom, the properties of whatever it is that's dynamical that you're studying, arises from dynamical relationships with other degrees of freedom.
In other words, you don't have absolute space, you don't have particles that occupy points or follow paths or trajectories in absolute space. You have many particles which, between them, allow you to define relative motion.
Lee has given several talks[4] at PIRSA since that interview with more details as he's developed his idea.
So while both go hard on the relational aspect, they disagree on some fundamental things. Rovelli thinks time is an illusion, but in Lee's CTV time is real and space is the illusion (emergent).
Who knows if it'll pan out or be a dead end, but since the quantum physics community has been headbutting the fundamental issues with little progress for so many decades, it seems prudent to try some bold approaches.
I'm not a physicist by any means but I was just thinking something similar only a few minutes ago... that humans (or anything) ageing probably only exists as a function of the passage of time, but if all matter stopped moving, even in an isolated area, there is seemingly no longer a passage of time there. So maybe time itself only exists insofar as our ability to measure relative changes to matter.
A crazy thought I had in my sleep: What if dark matter only exists as a random noise generator to keep the simulation from halting? /s
I love Rovelli, but to me he’s just another proof that if you look for too long into the quantum abyss, the abyss is gonna eventually look back at you…
> Within modern philosophy there are sometimes taken to be two fundamental conceptions of idealism:
> 1. Something mental (the mind, spirit, reason, will) is the ultimate foundation of all reality, or even exhaustive of reality, and
> 2. although the existence of something independent of the mind is conceded, everything that we can know about this mind-independent “reality” is held to be so permeated by the creative, formative, or constructive activities of the mind (of some kind or other) that all claims to knowledge must be considered, in some sense, to be a form of self-knowledge.
Among mainstream philosophical traditions, idealism is IMO the weakest, as it's inevitably solipsistic. Physicalism has become strongest.
There are many concepts like this throughout human history - another one I'm thinking of is the (in the West) monotheistic idea of narrative history/time. By framing time as something that can have a beginning and end, you enable or at least incentivize "progress", and mentally unlock the ability to work toward some idealized future, rather than accepting that time is cyclical and/or without some notion of moving forward.
Perfectly in line with his political views, when he's a guest on the Italian TV's, or on social media he spend so much time defending the reasons of the Russian in the Ukrainian invasion. With hosts that often asks physics and political questions in the same set, as if his way of looking at reality gives him any ground truth. I'm wondering how much his physics and political views overlap. Such a delusion for me as Italian, I stopped reading his books for this reason and because at some point, after the wonder effect of reading about quantum worlds, I was left with the sensation that I read a lot and nothing at the same time
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2sMeXLuLw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3riyyEmWwoY
- First, because it would be a way to test these hypotheses
- Second, because it would dramatically expand humanity's playground, even if it's only in the solar system in the first step.
- Third, because building a Warp drive would be good for the economy. Currently, we have no equivalent to the space race. We have AI, but there are doubts that it will enable more than incremental steps.
If I had to label him, I'd say he is mostly an anti-realist.
Carlo Rovelli on challenging our common-sense notion of time - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17893865 - Sept 2018 (74 comments)
Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376437 - June 2018 (143 comments)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2105.13338
And my own personal take on it:
https://blog.rongarret.info/2014/10/parallel-universes-and-a...
Moreover, it's pretty obvious that when they're describing the theory they can not avoid evoking temporal language & metaphors so it's difficult to take them seriously when even they can't avoid describing what's going on w/o referring to time.
Those rules might be be deterministic or there may be a roll of a dice. Then what we perceive as time is the sequence of states, the memory of previous states. No ticks are needed: there might be no central clock like in CPUs, each part of reality might apply those rules continously and move the global state from one state to another one.
But this is not physics as we are doing it now, it's presocratic philosophy. They got the idea of atoms right among a number of ones that turned on wrong.
but time ticking because of some dynamic interaction mechanism between some things (like a mechanical clock) is very different than some fundamental/abstract/irreducible "time" which just is (like in einstein)
And later:
> Our community has wasted a lot of time searching after speculative ideas. What we need instead is to digest the knowledge we already have. And to do that, we need philosophy. Philosophers help us not to find the right answers to given questions, but to find the right questions to better conceptualize reality.
I think it’s odd that a physicists proposes a new theory without suggesting experiments that could falsify the theory.
The amount of people looking outward only is too damn high, as the saying goes.
and you can rearrange equations to make them better fit together without needing new experiments
Lee Smolin has gone down a different track but with similar spirit of sorts. Carlo poked fun at Lee for all the work they've done together despite disagreeing on so much in his recent talk[1] at Lee's Fest[2].
Smolin has named his approach the Causal Theory of Views, in which he postulates that spacetime emerges from events, ie relational interactions. This[3] interview, which is a few years old now, contains a decent high-level explanation. The idea that kinda overlaps with Rovelli he explains like this:
The theory that I've been looking for would take advantage of the fact that the notion of locality and nonlocality is key to understanding quantum mechanics, and then try to understand that with the lens of the unification of quantum physics with space and time, which is quantum gravity.
In both approaches, there's a principle, which is the idea of relational physics—that the degrees of freedom, the properties of whatever it is that's dynamical that you're studying, arises from dynamical relationships with other degrees of freedom.
In other words, you don't have absolute space, you don't have particles that occupy points or follow paths or trajectories in absolute space. You have many particles which, between them, allow you to define relative motion.
Lee has given several talks[4] at PIRSA since that interview with more details as he's developed his idea.
So while both go hard on the relational aspect, they disagree on some fundamental things. Rovelli thinks time is an illusion, but in Lee's CTV time is real and space is the illusion (emergent).
Who knows if it'll pan out or be a dead end, but since the quantum physics community has been headbutting the fundamental issues with little progress for so many decades, it seems prudent to try some bold approaches.
[1]: https://pirsa.org/25060030
[2]: https://pirsa.org/c25023
[3]: https://www.edge.org/conversation/lee_smolin-the-causal-theo...
[4]: https://pirsa.org/speaker/lee-smolin
A crazy thought I had in my sleep: What if dark matter only exists as a random noise generator to keep the simulation from halting? /s
My brain is weird.