Straussian Memes

(lesswrong.com)

13 points | by kp1197 3 hours ago

5 comments

  • VikingCoder 1 hour ago
    I don't know what you'd call something structured like this, but I really love that advice:

    "You can't change the people around you -

    But you can change the people around you."

  • galaxyLogic 1 hour ago
    Another phrase that comes to mind is "Plausible Deniability": By uttering ambiguous sentences you can deny all but one possible meanings of what you say. And talking to different audiences at different times you can claim you didn't mean anything like what your citics are claiming you did.

    But I like the idea there is a term for this, be it Straussian Memes or something else. What I didn't quite get is how "self-stabilizing" works?

    What I'd like is for TV-anchors to get wise and start asking their interviewees "What EXACTLY do you mean when you use this term ...". But I guess they won't because they too are happy to spread a meme which multiple different communities can like because they understand it in the way they like.

    • ryandv 35 minutes ago
      > Another phrase that comes to mind is "Plausible Deniability": By uttering ambiguous sentences you can deny all but one possible meanings of what you say. And talking to different audiences at different times you can claim you didn't mean anything like what your citics are claiming you did.

      This is the core rhetorical tactic of the progressive left in a nutshell. Linguistic superposition, equivocation, Schrodinger's definition - whatever you want to call it, it's the ability to have your cake and eat it too by simply changing your definitions, or even someone else's, post hoc.

      Let us take a moment to be reminded of the English Socialism of Orwell and doublespeak.

      • lcuff 17 minutes ago
        "Core rhetorical tactic of the progressive left". Or the conservative right, depending on which side of this divide one happens to stand on. And speaking of Orwell, he was pointing out the doublespeak of the Fascists, not the socialists.
        • ryandv 14 minutes ago
          It's really quite potent in terms such as "racism" or "gender" which have seen unilateral attempts at redefinition.
          • PaulHoule 11 minutes ago
            "Illegal alien" is one of the greatest accomplishments of language engineering and was unambiguously successful.

            When the left tries this today it results in equal and opposite backlash and has no effect in terms of policy, winning elections, and that sort of stuff, but it certainly can be a motor that keeps online bubbles bubbling.

            • ryandv 10 minutes ago
              I think there is no equivocation or ambiguity here, unless you are me at age 5 asking why aliens have landed in Mexico.

              I would hazard that you are underestimating the impact of these rhetorical tactics, but I've not the energy to aggressively litigate and cite this point further.

  • motohagiography 42 minutes ago
    I think the author is talking about "exoteric" meaning, which is for public consumption, and "esoteric" meaning, which is for the initiated. Even though they say they aren't dogwhistles or shibboleths, these Straussian memes are closely related, as the accusation asserts that there is an "esoteric" meaning to something beneath its "exoteric" face value.

    They may be a converse of the Scissor Statement, which has a dual meaning that is irreconcilable between the separate interpreters. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21190508)

  • cathyreisenwitz 2 hours ago
    Did I miss something, or are none of the examples both Straussian and memetic/memes? I feel like if this were a real thing, one could imagine one example. Also, that's not how churches generally work.
    • UniverseHacker 1 hour ago
      Religions themselves are a great example of a Straussian meme, it’s shocking how close they got to using that example but instead went somewhere else with it that made zero sense.

      I suspect that the use of incredibly bad examples is some sort of intentional Straussian joke, and that the entire article itself, and not the examples in it, is supposed to be the real example of a Straussian meme.

    • PaulHoule 2 hours ago
      It's classic Bay Area monoculture, like that Paul Graham essay about "things you can't say". People are deferential to it because LessWrong is a hugbox or because Graham is rich but in that monoculture people are used to laughing at jokes that lack a punch line and thinking that makes them "insiders", "cool", or "smart", compared to people in flyover states, the East Coast, and the rest of California who can't see the Emperor's clothes.

      The article itself is an example of something that overlaps to some extent with its subject without being an example of the subject, like all the examples in it. It's an intriguing idea, like "things you can't say" but without examples it falls flat but that won't bother the rationalists anymore than they are bothered by Aella's "experiments" or allegedly profound fanfics or adding different people's utility functions or reasoning about the future without discounting. It's a hugbox.

      Or maybe it is something they can't find any examples of it because humans can't make them, only hypothetical superhuman AI.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyOEwiQhzMI

      • UniverseHacker 1 hour ago
        Your rant about Bay Area subcultures is suspiciously written in jargon that only someone deep in these subcultures would recognize- well done, very Straussian.
        • PaulHoule 35 minutes ago
          You know they do have my picture in the dictionary next to "insider-outsider!"